[horde] Marking messages as seen on delete

Post by Ole Wolf
In Imp, is it possible to automatically mark messages as seen when I
delete them?

...and *are* they seen or just deleted? It doesn't make sense to flag
a message incorrectly as seen if, in fact, the message in question has
not been seen.

--
mike

The Horde Project (www.horde.org)
mrubinsk at horde.org

Ole Wolf

2011-10-22 13:49:10 UTC

Post by Michael J Rubinsky
...and *are* they seen or just deleted? It doesn't make sense to
flag a message incorrectly as seen if, in fact, the message in
question has not been seen.

Sure it does. For example:

* I hover the mouse over the subject to see a preview and decide that
this email isn't interesting, so I delete it while having actually
read enough of it to know it can safely be deleted.

* The spam filter or some other blacklist doesn't catch an email,
which turns up in the inbox. Judging from the sender and title alone,
you can often identify obvious junk.

--
Ole Wolf
R?dh?ttevej 4 * 9400 N?rresundby
Telefon: 9632-0108 * Mobil: 2467-5526 * Skype: ole.wolf * SIP:
ole.wolf at ekiga.net

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-keys
Size: 5253 bytes
Desc: PGP Public Key
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111022/2f9cfe19/attachment.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4084 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111022/2f9cfe19/attachment-0001.bin>

Michael J Rubinsky

2011-10-22 14:11:48 UTC

Post by Michael J Rubinsky
...and *are* they seen or just deleted? It doesn't make sense to
flag a message incorrectly as seen if, in fact, the message in
question has not been seen.

* I hover the mouse over the subject to see a preview and decide
that this email isn't interesting, so I delete it while having
actually read enough of it to know it can safely be deleted.

I still don't see this as a reason to mark all deleted messages as
'seen' as a rule. IMO, in this case the question really is this:
Should displaying a preview of the message count as "seen"? It
shouldn't IMO but I'm not the one to make this decision. Marking any
and all deleted messages as 'seen', carte blanche, is not correct
since the message(s) have not really been seen. I don't have access to
the relevant RFC at the moment (behind a restrictive firewall) but
IIRC for a message to be seen it has to have had the BODY retrieved
from the server.

Post by Ole Wolf
* The spam filter or some other blacklist doesn't catch an email,
which turns up in the inbox. Judging from the sender and title
alone, you can often identify obvious junk.

It still doesn't mean that the message body was actually retrieved.

--
mike

The Horde Project (www.horde.org)
mrubinsk at horde.org

Ole Wolf

2011-10-22 14:26:17 UTC

I don't have access to the relevant RFC at the moment (behind a
restrictive firewall) but IIRC for a message to be seen it has to
have had the BODY retrieved from the server.
...
It still doesn't mean that the message body was actually retrieved.

I don't quite see why such an option has anything to do with any RFC,
or whether IMP must have technically displayed the message to the user
before IMP can be allowed to mark the message as seen.

I'm simply asking if there's a feature that allows the user to choose
whether he or she wants to mark a message as seen when it is deleted.
(I'm assuming the user can't by now!)

--
Ole Wolf
R?dh?ttevej 4 * 9400 N?rresundby
Telefon: 9632-0108 * Mobil: 2467-5526 * Skype: ole.wolf * SIP:
ole.wolf at ekiga.net

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-keys
Size: 5253 bytes
Desc: PGP Public Key
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111022/d57e5859/attachment-0002.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4084 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111022/d57e5859/attachment-0003.bin>

Michael J Rubinsky

2011-10-22 14:30:49 UTC

I don't quite see why such an option has anything to do with any
RFC, or whether IMP must have technically displayed the message to
the user before IMP can be allowed to mark the message as seen.

...because the meaning/use of IMAP message flags is dictated by the IMAP RFCs.

Post by Ole Wolf
I'm simply asking if there's a feature that allows the user to
choose whether he or she wants to mark a message as seen when it is
deleted. (I'm assuming the user can't by now!)

You assume correctly :)

--
mike

The Horde Project (www.horde.org)
mrubinsk at horde.org

Ole Wolf

2011-10-22 14:57:47 UTC

Post by Michael J Rubinsky
...because the meaning/use of IMAP message flags is dictated by the IMAP RFCs.

Yes, but I'm not asking for a new use of the flags; both "seen" and
"deleted" would retain their meanings according to the RFC.

Most email clients allow the user to mark an entire selection of
messages as "seen" without ever displaying them to the user. Imp
allows this, too. Deleting and marking isn't necessarily an atomic
operation, so I don't see how an RFC applies.

Glancing over TFC 3501, I wasn't able to find anything either for or
against marking deleted messages as seen.

--
Ole Wolf
R?dh?ttevej 4 * 9400 N?rresundby
Telefon: 9632-0108 * Mobil: 2467-5526 * Skype: ole.wolf * SIP:
ole.wolf at ekiga.net

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-keys
Size: 5253 bytes
Desc: PGP Public Key
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111022/5c5ec1b1/attachment.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4084 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111022/5c5ec1b1/attachment-0001.bin>

Vilius Šumskas

2011-10-22 15:43:57 UTC

Sveiki,

Post by Michael J Rubinsky
...because the meaning/use of IMAP message flags is dictated by the IMAP RFCs.

I fully agree with everything Ole said. Preference in IMP to mark
deleted messages as seen would be nice.

--
Best regards,
Vilius

Michael Gröne

2011-10-23 00:50:09 UTC

Post by Vilius Å umskas
I fully agree with everything Ole said. Preference in IMP to mark
deleted messages as seen would be nice.

I really would like such an option, too.
--
Michael Gr?ne

ZELSW - Zentrale Einrichtung Lehre, Studium und Weiterbildung
Abt.3: Weiterbildung, EDV
Leibniz Universit?t Hannover
Schlo?wender Str. 5
30159 Hannover

Tel. +49 511 762 5437
Fax: +49 511 762 5686
http://www.zew.uni-hannover.de

Stephan Kleber

2011-10-23 14:23:13 UTC

Post by Vilius Å umskas
I fully agree with everything Ole said. Preference in IMP to mark
deleted messages as seen would be nice.

I really would like such an option, too.

I pledge in favor of a "delete and mark as read"-option to.
Perhaps as another action in the context-menu?

Simon Brereton

2011-10-23 18:36:12 UTC

Post by Stephan Kleber

I ?fully ?agree ?with ?everything ?Ole said. Preference in IMP to mark
deleted messages as seen would be nice.

I really would like such an option, too.

I pledge in favor of a "delete and mark as read"-option to.
Perhaps as another action in the context-menu?

Whilst I'm not against features being added in principle, I know of
not other client that has this. And all my clients (windows, linux,
mac and web) display unread messages in the deleted folder. I simply
either select all and mark read or mark read before I move them.

Simon

Vilius Šumskas

2011-10-23 19:08:42 UTC

Sveiki,

Post by Simon Brereton

Post by Stephan Kleber

I ?fully ?agree ?with ?everything ?Ole said. Preference in IMP to mark
deleted messages as seen would be nice.

I really would like such an option, too.

I pledge in favor of a "delete and mark as read"-option to.
Perhaps as another action in the context-menu?

My main problem is that IMP displays deleted messages as seen even
if messages are not moved to Trash. So you still get unseen messages
counter near Inbox or any other folder. AFAIK at least this behaviour
is not consistent with other clients, because all other clients marks
them as seen.

I'm not in faviour of context menu for this option, but a user
preference would be nice.

--
Best regards,
Vilius

Michael M Slusarz

2011-10-24 18:34:46 UTC

Post by Vilius Å umskas
Sveiki,

Post by Simon Brereton

Post by Stephan Kleber

I ?fully ?agree ?with ?everything ?Ole said. Preference in IMP to mark
deleted messages as seen would be nice.

I really would like such an option, too.

I pledge in favor of a "delete and mark as read"-option to.
Perhaps as another action in the context-menu?

I don't think this is true (for the reasons mentioned in my previous
email). I would contend that any e-mail program that marks deleted
messages as seen by default is broken.

I think a valid discussion is whether to count deleted, unseen
messages in a mailbox as "unread" for purposes of the UI (this is
independent of RFCs, since a newmail count in a MUA is a UI-decision,
not something defined by the RFCs).

Post by Vilius Å umskas
I'm not in faviour of context menu for this option, but a user
preference would be nice.

I would not be opposed to adding an advanced pref for "mark deleted
messages as seen". This could be seen as nothing more than a
UI-specific macro for message deletion. And it indicates, like the
mark message as seen example, that the user has explicitly indicated
their desire to considered these messages viewed. obviously, the
default setting MUST be off for this preference.

michael

___________________________________
Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]

Vilius Šumskas

2011-10-24 18:45:46 UTC

Sveiki,

Post by Michael M Slusarz

Post by Vilius Å umskas
I'm not in faviour of context menu for this option, but a user
preference would be nice.

Defaulting to off is OK and understandable by me.

--
Best regards,
Vilius

Ole Wolf

2011-10-24 20:49:09 UTC

I would contend that any e-mail program that marks deleted messages
as seen by default is broken.

I agree: it should not be the default behavior.

I think a valid discussion is whether to count deleted, unseen
messages in a mailbox as "unread" for purposes of the UI (this is
independent of RFCs, since a newmail count in a MUA is a
UI-decision, not something defined by the RFCs).

Indeed; it's not an RFC matter, but a UI decision.

I would not be opposed to adding an advanced pref for "mark
deleted messages as seen".  This could be seen as nothing more
than a UI-specific macro for message deletion.  And it
indicates, like the mark message as seen example, that the user has
explicitly indicated their desire to considered these messages
viewed.  obviously, the default setting MUST be off for this
preference.

That's exactly what I'm requesting. I'm (obviously) all for this approach. :)

--
Ole Wolf
R?dh?ttevej 4 * 9400 N?rresundby
Telefon: 9632-0108 * Mobil: 2467-5526 * Skype: ole.wolf * SIP:
ole.wolf at ekiga.net
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-keys
Size: 5253 bytes
Desc: PGP Public Key
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111024/bace82d2/attachment.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4084 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111024/bace82d2/attachment-0001.bin>

Michael M Slusarz

2011-10-25 05:18:21 UTC

Post by Michael M Slusarz
I would not be opposed to adding an advanced pref for "mark
deleted messages as seen".  This could be seen as nothing more
than a UI-specific macro for message deletion.  And it
indicates, like the mark message as seen example, that the user has
explicitly indicated their desire to considered these messages
viewed.  obviously, the default setting MUST be off for this
preference.

That's exactly what I'm requesting. I'm (obviously) all for this approach. :)

I have added a 'delete_mark_seen' preference to IMP 5.0.15. Testing
(with git master) would be appreciated.

michael

___________________________________
Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]

Ole Wolf

2011-10-25 15:03:04 UTC

I have added a 'delete_mark_seen' preference to IMP 5.0.15.? Testing
(with git master) would be appreciated.

Awesome. :)

I pulled the git repo, and temporarily moved IMP 5.0.14 out of my working
installation, replacing it with IMP 5.0.15 from git. It fails with a fatal
error when I click one of the mail folders, but this probablly has nothing
to do with the preference addition:

IMP_Imap: Invalid method call "getIdsOb".

1. IMP_Mailbox_List->getMailboxArray() /var/www/webmail/imp/mailbox.php:258
2. IMP_Imap->getIdsOb() /var/www/webmail/imp/lib/Mailbox/List.php:169
3. IMP_Imap->__call() /var/www/webmail/imp/lib/Mailbox/List.php:169

The reason may be that I'm not using the entire git repo, but only copying
the imp directory from git into my working (non-git) installation.

As far as the preference addition goes, I see it in the "Deleting and
Moving Messages" section when advanced preferences are displayed. The
preference is probably stored when I mark the checkbox, but it doesn't
appear to be loaded from the preferences system when the preferences page
is refreshed. It's unchecked when I revisit the preferences page.

--
OLE WOLF[1]
R?dh?ttevej 4 * 9400 N?rresundby
Telefon: 9632-0108 * Mobil: 2467-5526 * Skype: ole.wolf * SIP:
ole.wolf at ekiga.net

Links:
------
[1] http://naturloven.dk
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/pgp-keys
Size: 5253 bytes
Desc: PGP Public Key
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111025/3c065ab0/attachment-0002.bin>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4084 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://lists.horde.org/archives/horde/attachments/20111025/3c065ab0/attachment-0003.bin>

Michael M Slusarz

2011-10-25 16:38:00 UTC

I have added a 'delete_mark_seen' preference to IMP 5.0.15.?
Testing (with git master) would be appreciated.

The minimum version of Horde_Imap_Client was increased. Normally
don't like to do this, but this entirely prevented use of IMP with
certain POP3 servers. So you really need to have a full git install
to properly use git master.

Post by Ole Wolf
As far as the preference addition goes, I see it in the "Deleting and
Moving Messages" section when advanced preferences are displayed. The
preference is probably stored when I mark the checkbox, but it doesn't
appear to be loaded from the preferences system when the preferences page
is refreshed. It's unchecked when I revisit the preferences page.

Did you logout? Prefs are cached during a login, so changes to the
prefs.php file won't affect the current session.

michael

___________________________________
Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]

Michael M Slusarz

2011-10-24 18:27:29 UTC

Post by Michael J Rubinsky
...because the meaning/use of IMAP message flags is dictated by the IMAP RFCs.

Yes, but I'm not asking for a new use of the flags; both "seen" and
"deleted" would retain their meanings according to the RFC.

"Seen" means that a user has "read" the message (RFC 3501 [2.3.2]).
To "read" a message, this implies that a user has taken a proactive,
pull action to view the message (i.e. clicking on a message to view).
Compare this with a passive, push action, i.e. the MUA, NOT the user,
downloads the initial portion of the message to view as a preview.
This is not "read"

Post by Ole Wolf
Most email clients allow the user to mark an entire selection of
messages as "seen" without ever displaying them to the user. Imp
allows this, too.

See above. This is a proactive action on the user's part to "read"
the message - in this case, the user simply doesn't care to view the
actual text. In both of these cases (viewing a message, SPECIFICALLY
marking a message as read), the user has implicitly viewed the message.

Post by Ole Wolf
Deleting and marking isn't necessarily an atomic operation, so I
don't see how an RFC applies.

Exactly. When deleting a message, you are just marking the message as
deleted. There's nothing in there about changing the seen flag. So
the seen flag is irrelevant in a delete. There is no implicit
understanding that by deleting a message, the user has "read" it.

A real-world analogy is useful here. Say I receive a piece of junk
mail in snail mail. I can actually open the envelope and view the
message. Say I throw it in the trash after reading. Anybody could
look into the trash can and determine that I have actually viewed the
message.

On the other hand, say I have looked at the envelope of the message
indicates it is junk mail. I can then write "REVIEWED" on the message
and throw it in the trash. Anybody could look into the trash can and
determine that I have actually reviewed the message, to the extent
that I have determined that its contents do not interest me.

The final thing I could do is to simply throw the message out.
However, somebody looking at the trash could not specifically tell
whether I have ever viewed the message. In fact, it is equally as
likely that the message ended up in the mailbox by mistake. This has
to be the default understanding, unless I have proactively done
something to indicate I have reviewed the message.

In short, Delete != Read

Post by Ole Wolf
Glancing over TFC 3501, I wasn't able to find anything either for or
against marking deleted messages as seen.

In the absence of mandatory language, the default HAS to be leaving
the message in the status quo then.

michael

___________________________________
Michael Slusarz [slusarz at horde.org]

Ole Wolf

2011-10-24 20:45:58 UTC